E. Jean Carroll Opens Up About Taking on Trump in Court and Winning — Twice
From where E. Jean Carroll was standing in a U.S. District courtroom in Lower Manhattan, the tea leaves were not auspiciously arranged. The jury had reached a verdict far too quickly. They’d deliberated for less than three hours — barely enough time for Carroll and her legal team to finish their lunch — before the forewoman announced a decision. Count One: Not liable. “Boy, that was not a good sign,” Carroll recalls. Then, suddenly, the spell broke: The jury found Donald Trump liable of sexual abuse and defamation, and they awarded Carroll $5 million in damages. Trump — who had fended off two impeachment inquiries, delayed, deflected, and seen dozens of other legal cases dismissed — had lost. A second jury would later award Carroll an additional $83.3 million for emotional and reputational damage. (Trump is appealing both decisions.)
Before she sued Trump, Carroll was a legend in her own right: one of few female voices in the testosterone-soaked world of men’s magazines — chronicling the experiences of rodeo queens, cheerleaders, and NBA groupies — and an Emmy-nominated writer at Saturday Night Live. (“Lorne [Michaels] didn’t think anything I wrote was funny … I was ‘Dick in a Box,’ but I was too soon,” she says.) She was 52 years old and a wildly successful advice columnist, when a local real estate tycoon asked for her help picking out a gift one afternoon at Bergdorf Goodman. When Carroll came forward with her account in 2019, she joined more than 20 other women who accused Trump, then the sitting president, of sexual misconduct. Today, she is still the only one whose claim has been adjudicated in a court of law. Carroll talked with Rolling Stone about beating Trump — twice.
This isn’t the first time you’ve been in Rolling Stone. The first time was back in the Eighties when you wrote a Billy Idol cover story for us. How was that?
It was the bestselling issue of the year. And the opening paragraph of the piece is Billy Idol saying to me, “It better be a good article, you c—.” The managing editor at the time said, “Jean, if Nixon calls you a cunt, we will print it. If Billy Idol calls you a cunt, we’re gonna say ‘c—.’ ”
You are probably most famous as an advice columnist — Ask E. Jean ran for more than 25 years at Elle magazine. What did you notice about how the questions you received changed over time?
The main thing I noticed was, during the first two years women were writing, asking “How can I become a model?” Over and over. Then pretty soon it became, “I’m in law school. I don’t know what I’m going to do after law school.” They learned the importance of things other than their beauty. Something happened in the culture right around ’93, ’94, ’95 where it stopped being about what you look like, and started being: How are you gonna earn money, and how are you gonna make that invention?
What was your mental calculus as you thought about coming forward with your experience with Trump? Did you consider coming forward when he first announced he was running for president, or when the Access Hollywood tape came out?
I was never, never, never, ever going to speak on this. Ever. And then both my parents died, and that freed me. I didn’t want to hurt them. It would have killed them. They both died in 2016, and then, just as I was never, never, never going to say a word, #MeToo happened. Jodi Kantor, Megan Twohey, and Ronan Farrow came forward with the [Harvey] Weinstein story, and women all over the country started to say what happened to them. I thought: This is a possibility. And then I went on a road trip and got really angry. I started to think about what happened to me. I started to think: He’s president of the United States — and I knew what he had done to me. It’s terrifying, because you worry you’ll lose your job. You know he’s going to retaliate. You know there’s going to be a threat. You know all this, you have to take that all into consideration. Then I met [my lawyer] Robbie Kaplan and told her the story. And you know what Robbie says? “That is so crazy. It’s got to be true.”
Your experience — going to court and being awarded damages — is quite rare. When someone has been sexually assaulted, or worse, the assumption is often that coming forward will make a terrible situation more awful.
You’re the first person who’s asked me that and you say “sexual assault, or worse,” and that’s exactly what you should say — sexual assault, and worse — because what happens afterwards is devastating. [The damage to your] reputation, feelings of shame, the guy is out walking around making a zillion dollars a minute. So I was pretty happy with #MeToo. I thought: “Oh, boy, here we go.” That was such a great moment. Men lost their jobs for the first time. Their jobs! With the exception: Donald Trump did not. My getting two federal juries — two — to hold him accountable was more important than anything.
Are you in touch with any of the other women who have accused Trump of assault?
Yes.
What are those conversations like?
I wish you could be there. They’re not what you think. There’s a lot of laughing. There’s a lot of support. Many of them are still — still to this hour — struggling with what they went through: horrible, horrible ripples of the aftereffect. I hope to use some of the money to help these women out because they have had a hard time.
What else will you do with the money you were awarded?
I want to give it to everything Trump hates.
I want to give [the money I was awarded] to everything Trump hates.
Can you tell me how your life has changed in the past year, since the two verdicts?
It’s not changed. I live exactly in my little hovel, my little cabin — 700 square feet — with the dogs and the cat and my neighbors. We still play poker on Saturday night. Absolutely the same. I’m working on a book now about the trial. It’s just the joy of waking up and working on the project, and that’s it, really. This is why I think I’m still happy and still living the high, because I didn’t partake in any huge celebrations. I kept it cool.
There is this real potential Trump could win the election this year. How do you reckon with that possibility?
I’m not even going to think about that.
Really? It’s not something you think about?
No. Here’s what I think: I think I won twice. That’s what I think about.
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