Paula Vennells lied to me, says Sir Ed Davey
Sir Ed Davey has suggested Paula Vennells, the former Post Office chief executive, lied to him over Horizon while he was a junior minister.
The Liberal Democrat leader said he was heavily reliant on the information Post Office officials passed on to him as Post Office minister in David Cameron’s coalition government.
Giving evidence to the Post Office Horizon inquiry on Thursday, Sir Ed said that he knows he was lied to by the Post Office.
He said: “I now know I was being lied to. I follow this inquiry and it’s pretty clear what they told my officials was not true.”
When pressed on who the executives were that lied to him, Sir Ed said: “The senior executives I dealt with – and this is not directly answering your question – but the senior executives I dealt with were Mr David Smith [former Post Office managing director] and Paula Vennells.
“They were the people passing information which was untrue.”
More than 900 postal workers were wrongfully prosecuted as a result of glitches in the Fujitsu Horizon software, which incorrectly recorded shortfalls on their branch accounts.
In a 62-page witness statement submitted to the inquiry, Sir Ed wrote: “Without wishing to pre-empt the findings of this inquiry, I think a big challenge this scandal highlights is what can be done when senior executives in an organisation like the Post Office are prepared to lie – not only to victims, journalists and ministers, but even to Parliament and the courts.”
Sir Ed, who was parliamentary under-secretary for business between 2010 and 2012, later clarified that he could not “know …how the information came to” Ms Vennells and Mr Smith, or what they were thinking at the time.
However, he added: “But someone, I assume, senior in Post Office Ltd, must have known the truth, must have at some stage understood that and this is what I hope the inquiry will uncover.”
‘I’m sorry I failed to meet Alan Bates’
Ms Vennells, a 65-year-old ordained priest, was Post Office chief executive from 2012 to 2019. During this time, the company was dealing with the fall-out of potential wrongful convictions of sub-postmasters.
Giving evidence over three days in May, Ms Vennells repeatedly broke down and apologised for her part in the scandal.
Sir Ed also apologised for failing to meet former sub-postmaster and campaigner Sir Alan Bates, whose fight for justice was dramatised in the series Mr Bates vs The Post Office.
Sir Alan had written to Sir Ed soon after he took on his ministerial role to alert him to the concerns of his campaign group, Justice For Sub-postmasters Alliance.
Sir Ed claimed he could not remember reading Sir Alan’s initial correspondence, and said he may have only read the brief note he signed off which declined his request to meet in person.
This response ended with the sentence: “I do not believe a meeting would serve any useful purpose”, which Sir Ed admitted to the inquiry was “terse”.
In his statement, he wrote: “As one of the ministers over the 20 years of this scandal who had postal affairs as part of my ministerial responsibilities, I am sorry that it took me five months to meet Sir Alan Bates, the man who has done so much to uncover all this, and that I did not see through [Post Office’s] lies when I and my officials raised his concerns with them.”
The inquiry continues.
05:02 PM BST
That’s all for today
Thank you for following The Telegraph’s live coverage of Thursday’s Post Office Inquiry, which has now ended for the day.
The inquiry will return tomorrow morning at 9:45am to hear from Jo Swinson, the deputy Lib Dem leader, and Dame Moya Green, the former CEO of Royal Mail Group.
Today’s headlines have included:
Priti Patel repeatedly fobbed off by Sir Ed Davey over Post Office questions
Sir Ed Davey apologised for taking five months to meet Sir Alan Bates
Lib Dem leader only learnt of sub-postmaster prosecutions through inquiry
Post Office turned from “blind faith” to “dishonesty”, said Pat McFadden
McFadden said the Post Office would not have listened to concerns
Labour MP said he was not briefed on any sub-postmaster issues
04:52 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey discusses three of his constituents impacted by Horizon scandal
Sir Ed Davey has told the inquiry he has “three constituents” in Kingston and Surbiton who have been affected by the Horizon scandal.
Answering questions from sub-postmaster lawyers, the Lib Dem leader paused before saying: “I hope you don’t mind, Sir Wyn, I have three constituents I’m representing now who have whose lives have been severely affected by this scandal.
“I’m obviously not going to name names but listening to their stories, like the one you’ve just spoken about, like so many, justice demands that we change the systems to make sure this can’t happen again.”
04:48 PM BST
Former sub-postmaster says Sir Ed Davey ‘should have done more’
Former subpostmaster Mark Kelly, who was falsely accused of stealing money from his post office in Swansea, said Sir Ed Davey “should have done more” during his time as minister for postal affairs.
Speaking outside the inquiry room on Thursday, Mr Kelly told said: “He should have asked why [the number of prosecutions] jumped up so high.
“He was taking the easy way out as a minister and not looking too much, just taking civil servants as gospel.
“He could and should have done more.”
04:22 PM BST
Biggest lesson from inquiry is governance of arm’s-length bodies, says Sir Ed
Sir Ed Davey has said a lesson from the Post Office Inquiry should be for the Government to “go even further” to ensure the oversight of all arm’s-length bodies is “thorough”.
The Lib Dem leader said: “Clearly one of the big problems that arises from this tragedy and appalling miscarriage of justice is how the executive arm of the Government – the department – oversees arms-length bodies.
“I’m a big believer in improving corporate governance and greater transparency.
“I think the lesson from this appalling situation is we need possibly to go even further and the Government should go across all arm’s-length bodies to check that the governance is appropriate so the oversight is genuine and real and thorough.”
Arm’s-length bodies refer to those responsible for delivering public services and accountable to government ministers with varying independence.
04:03 PM BST
Civil servant ‘cut and pasted’ information to brief minister
Sir Ed Davey was briefed by a civil servant who “cut and paste” a description of the “integrity of Horizon” from Post Office paperwork.
The inquiry was shown a briefing document prepared by Mike Whitehead, a civil servant from the Shareholder Executive, ahead of Sir Ed meeting Sir Alan Bates in October 2010.
Lead counsel Jason Beer KC pointed out that much of the wording on Horizon’s integrity was word-for-word the same as copy used by the Post Office in other literature.
Addressing the politician, Mr Beer said: “The entirety of the information in the sections that I’ve read you appears to be a cut and paste from the Post Office briefing. They’ve right clicked, swiped, cut or copied and pasted?”
Sir Ed nodded in response.
Mr Beer then asked if this is what Sir Ed would have expected from the officials charged with briefing him, to which he replied: “It is not what I expected. When I saw the documents in the bundles sent to me, it became obvious it had been cut and pasted as you said and that surprised me.”
03:24 PM BST
Sir Alan Bates labels Davey’s rejection letter ‘offensive’
The inquiry has been shown Sir Alan Bates’ response to Sir Ed Davey’s letter rejecting a meeting with the former sub-postmaster.
Sir Alan described the junior minister’s comments as “offensive” and Post Office executives as “little more than thugs in suits”.
03:11 PM BST
Watch: Sir Ed Davey questioned on lies from senior Post Office officials
03:04 PM BST
Priti Patel repeatedly fobbed off by Sir Ed Davey over Post Office questions
Sir Ed Davey repeatedly evaded questions put to him by Priti Patel, the former home secretary, over the effectiveness of the Horizon system in 2010.
The Post Office Inquiry was shown a series of four parliamentary questions Dame Priti submitted to the then junior minister, which asked about a review of the IT system and an estimate of the cost of Horizon errors.
In response to the majority of the queries, Sir Ed forwarded responsibility onto David Smith, the former Post Office managing director, under the claim that the company’s operational running lay with the courier itself.
On one occasion in July 2010, Dame Priti asked how many times ministers had held discussions with Post Office Ltd over the faulty Horizon system in the last five years.
In a draft response shown to the inquiry, Sir Ed replied: “The Horizon system is an operational responsibility of the company and I have had no such discussions… I am therefore unable to provide the information requested.”
Dame Priti also attempted to set a meeting with Sir Ed, who became junior minister for postal affairs in May 2010, over concerns from one of her constituents on the Horizon system.
Sir Ed said the letter was not brought to his attention – though it probably should have been – and he was not aware she was “seeking a meeting”.
02:43 PM BST
First response to Sir Alan Bates was ‘terse’, says Sir Ed Davey
Sir Ed Davey has admitted his response to the first letter from Sir Alan Bates was “terse”.
The Liberal Democrat leader said he could not remember reading the former sub-postmaster’s initial correspondence, and said he may have just read a response drafted for him before singing it.
This response ended with the sentence: “I do not believe a meeting would serve any useful purpose.”
Sir Ed told the inquiry: “What I don’t recall – and I apologise for this – is whether or not in my letter file, there were both the original letter and the response.
“There may have been but I don’t recall it and I think I would have done given the nature of what Sir Alan was writing.”
02:40 PM BST
Sir Ed admits request to meet from Sir Alan Bates was ‘not unreasonable’
The inquiry is being shown the first letter Sir Alan Bates sent to Sir Ed Davey when he first took on the junior ministerial role in May 2010.
Sir Ed was asked by lead counsel Jason Beer KC if Sir Alan was asking for an opportunity to “present his case”, to which the Lib Dem leader said “he was indeed”.
Pushed on whether Sir Alan wanted only an audience with him, Sir Ed agreed and described the request as “not unreasonable”.
02:28 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey apologises for taking five months to meet Sir Alan Bates
Sir Ed Davey has apologised for taking five months to meet Sir Alan Bates.
Former sub-postmaster Sir Alan initially requested a meeting with Sir Ed when he became a junior minister in May 2010, but was turned down.
The Lib Dem leader did not go on to meet the Justice for Sub-postmasters Alliance founder for another five months.
In his witness statement submitted to the inquiry, Sir Ed said: “As one of the ministers over the 20 years of this scandal who had postal affairs as part of my ministerial responsibilities, I am sorry that it took me five months to meet Sir Alan Bates, the man who has done so much to uncover all this, and that I did not see through POL’s lies when I and my officials raised his concerns with them.”
02:23 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey received ‘substantive written briefings’ from civil servants
Sir Ed Davey says the “substantive written briefing” he received on Horizon was prepared by civil servant Mike Whitehead in October 2010.
Describing the briefing in his witness statement, Sir Ed said: “It indicated that Horizon had ‘proved robust’, that there were no ‘systematic integrity issues’, that the unions had ‘expressed confidence in Horizon’, that there was training, there were proper audit processes and no ‘backdoors’ – there had been regular reviews, there was an appeals process and legal representation, and no court had ever found problems with Horizon.”
Asked by lead counsel if he would question the information in writing briefings, Sir Ed said “no, I’d take it as read”.
02:15 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey unsure if civil servants misled him
Sir Ed Davey has said he does “not know” if civil servants misled him over the Horizon scandal.
In a witness statement submitted to the inquiry, the Lib Dem leader described how he was heavily reliant on officials and staff in his role as a parliamentary under-secretary of state.
He went on to write: “With all issues in such a busy portfolio, you had to be able to rely on the advice of civil servants, and you were not in a position to dig into the detail of every question that came across your desk.
“As I have stated publicly, I believe I was seriously misled by the Post Office.”
He continued: “I do not know if one or more civil servants misled me during my time as a minister, or if they were themselves misled by Post Office Ltd. I hope the Inquiry can shed light on this.
“However, if I had known then what we all know now – if the Post Office had told the truth – of course I would have acted differently.”
01:32 PM BST
Paula Vennells lied to me, says Sir Ed
Sir Ed Davey has said he was repeatedly lied to by Post Office senior executives, referencing former chief Paula Vennells and David Smith, former managing director.
In his witness statement, the Lib Dem leader refers to being “seriously misled” by the Post Office and says on multiple occasions that he was passed “untrue” information by senior officials.
He told the inquiry: “It is pretty clear what they told my officials was not true.”
Asked by Jason Beer KC on the identities of the senior executives, Sir Ed responded: “Well the senior executives I dealt with were David Smith and then Paula Vennells – there may have been one or two others.
“They were the ones giving information to my officials and then to me, so they were the people passing information that was untrue.”
Pushed on whether they had knowingly and intentionally lied, he said: “I cannot know what was in their minds and how the information came to them but someone, I assume senior, in Post Office Ltd must have known the truth at some stage.”
01:17 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey ‘deeply sorry’ for role in Post Office scandal
Sir Ed Davey apologised for “not seeing through” the Post Office’s lies and taking five months to meet with Sir Alan Bates, the sub-postmaster champion.
In his witness statement, he said: “The Post Office Horizon scandal is the greatest miscarriage of justice of our time, and I am deeply sorry for the individuals and families who have had their lives ruined by it.
“As one of the ministers over the 20 years of this scandal who had postal affairs as part of my ministerial responsibilities, I am sorry that it took me five months to meet Sir Alan Bates, the man who has done so much to uncover all this, and that I did not see through POL’s lies when I and my officials raised his concerns with them.”
01:14 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey only learnt of sub-postmaster prosecutions through inquiry
Sir Ed Davey has said he only became aware of the wrongful convictions of 900 sub-postmasters because of the Post Office Inquiry.
In his witness statement, the Liberal Democrat leader said he was not aware that the Post Office or Royal Mail Group had obtained convictions against any sub-postmasters.
Asked by lead counsel Jason Beer KC when he did then become aware, he said: “I’m trying to think if it was during this inquiry procedure, I think it probably was.
“I certainly did not realise it when I was a minister.”
01:03 PM BST
Post Office turned from “blind faith” to “dishonesty”, says McFadden
In the final remarks of Pat McFadden’s evidence, before the inquiry turned to Sir Ed Davey, the Labour MP said “blind faith” in the Post Office’s Horizon system turned to something “more sinister”.
He told the inquiry: “What I’m not clear about is in what point in this story does blind faith from the Post Office in their IT system turn into something more sinister where people are just not telling the truth.
“Now I don’t know at what point that happens but it’s something I’m sure the inquiry will want to get to the bottom of.”
He continued to add that at some point the courier moved from “blind faith to dishonesty”.
12:58 PM BST
Sir Ed Davey admits accountability for Post Office
Sir Ed Davey has told the inquiry that he was “accountable for the Post Office” as a minister.
The Liberal Democrats leader was parliamentary under-secretary of state for employment relations, consumer and postal affairs between May 2010 and February 2012.
Lead counsel Jason Beer KC asked him: “Do you agree as the minister with responsibility for postal affairs and in the light of its status as a publicly-owned company, that you as a minister were accountable for the Post Office?”
To which Sir Ed said: “Yes, I do
12:50 PM BST
Ed Davey sworn in to Post Office Inquiry
Sir Ed Davey has been sworn in and made two corrections to his witness statement.
Lead counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC arrived to begin questioning Sir Ed Davey, taking over from counsel Sam Stevens who was cross examining Pat McFadden.
It has clearly been decided the most senior barrister on the inquiry team is needed for this role.
12:48 PM BST
Legislation stopped me getting involved in prosecutions, says McFadden
Pat McFadden has claimed legislation setting out the relationship between the Government and the Post Office prevented him from getting involved in sub-postmaster cases.
The Labour grandee was asked about criticism made by Lord Arbuthnot, the Tory peer who said Tony Blair’s government refused to take on the responsibilities that go with ownership.
Mr McFadden said: “I can understand why he’s angry given what happened and you know he’s right to be but the legislation of the Postal Services Act made a clear difference between operational running and overall ownership.”
He added: “And what that set up was the structure that when enquiries came in, or queries raised or questions asked from individual MPs about sub-postmasters or the operation of the Horizon system, that it would be referred the Post Office for response.”
12:40 PM BST
Inquiry room cleared for break ahead of Sir Ed Davey’s appearance
The Post Office Inquiry has taken a short break before Sir Ed Davey, the Liberal Democrat leader and former postal affairs minister, will begin giving evidence.
In an unusual move, inquiry ushers have asked for the hearing room to be cleared for ten minutes ahead of Sir Ed Davey’s appearance.
The inquiry will begin again at around 12:45pm.
12:15 PM BST
McFadden signed off and did not write replies to concerned MPs
Pat McFadden has said that even if a letter was “signed” by him, the information within it would have come from the Post Office.
The former minister is being shown multiple letters sent to and from his office, including from concerned MPs and a forwarded letter from a Computer Weekly reporter.
The Labour grandee said his correspondence was only shown to him once a reply had been drafted, so he would view both the original letter and the intended response for him to sign at the same time.
He told the inquiry: “Even if the reply is signed by me…the information is still all coming from Post Office, because the Department has no independent source of information about matters concerning individual sub-postmasters.
“The only people who have the information are the Post Office themselves.”
12:05 PM BST
Post Office would not have listened to me, says McFadden
Pat McFadden has said the Post Office insisted the Horizon system was “fit for purpose” to the point where he felt raising concerns would not have had any impact.
The Labour MP said: “The Post Office kept insisting that the system was robust and fit for purpose. They kept expressing their faith in it and using court judgements as a proof point.
“Now, of course, the terrible thing here is that these court judgements were later found to be unsafe and unsound but I didn’t know that at the time.”
Asked whether he felt there was more he could have done to challenge the courier, Mr McFadden said: “If you asked me over the whole story, of course I wish I had done more to question these responses.
But I believe if I had I would’ve got the same response from the Post Office in terms of these two points: the faith in the system … and a reference to court judgements.”
He said the “emphatic” responses from the company, court judgements and the brand’s reputation led him to continue believing the Post Office despite mounting issues.
11:51 AM BST
Watch: Business Secretary faces questions on financial redress for sub-postmasters in Commons
Pleased to have the first Urgent Question of the new Parliament granted this morning. I asked the Government about their commitment to financial redress for sub-postmasters and outstanding issues relating to the Post Office Horizon scandal. ??
Full video here:… pic.twitter.com/LvskB3Din1— Kevin Hollinrake MP (@kevinhollinrake) July 18, 2024
11:48 AM BST
IT issues regarded as a ‘matter for the Post Office’
Pat McFadden has said issues in the Horizon IT system would have been regarded as “a matter for the Post Office” and not the government.
Mr McFadden said the problem would have only received government attention when “more and more cases and questions” arose and the issue escalated.
Asked by counsel Sam Stevens if system problems were something the government should have been concerned with, he said: “We would certainly at that stage have had no way of knowing about the detailed running of the Horizon system.”
“Certainly in the early stages of this, this would have been regarded as a matter for the Post Office and that is reflected in this reply and in others.”
Mr McFadden is referring to a letter sent to him in 2009 by Jackie Smith, the then home secretary, detailing a “system problem” at Astwood Bank Post Office which led to the suspension of a sub-postmaster in 2008.
11:37 AM BST
‘Of course I wish I had done more,’ says McFadden
Pat McFadden has said he wishes he had done more to ask the Post Office if they were “really sure” their IT system was robust.
In the 26-page witness statement submitted to the inquiry, Mr McFadden reflected on the “injustice done to so many” sub-postmasters and suggested that concerns raised may not have been listened to.
The statement reads: “Rereading this correspondence now, and knowing the injustice done to so many [sub-postmasters], of course I wish I had done more to ask [Post Office Ltd] if they were really sure their IT system was as robust as they suggested.
“Yet if I had done so, I suspect they would have continued to insist that it was not to blame for these accounting errors and they would have continued to use the court judgements as proof points.”
11:26 AM BST
McFadden reliant on others telling the truth on Post Office
Pat McFadden has said “truth is at the heart of how this system works” as he described relying “enormously” on several layers of civil servants in Post Office correspondence.
The Labour MP said that ministers in his position were at the end and “not the beginning of the chain” when dealing with Post Office information.
“There are different layers involved in this to put together a reply to a letter, not just senior management but layers down from them. The minister is very reliant on those other layers telling the truth,” he said.
“You have to be in a position to trust the work in framing that reply. I don’t want people to have the impression that when letters come into a department the first port of call is a minister sitting beside it, thinking how will this be handled.
“Trust is at the heart of how this system works,” he added.
11:15 AM BST
No ‘departmental level’ discussions of Post Office prosecutions, says McFadden
Pat McFadden said he cannot remember a discussion taking place about Post Office prosecutions “at a department level”.
The Labour grandee told the inquiry: “Ministers are very reluctant for understandable constitutional reasons to intervene in prosecutions.
“And once court judgements are cited, all the ministerial learning you have is not to interfere with the courts.”
He added: “In my period as a minister I never remember a discussion - it may be you know you’d think this isn’t right - but I never remember a discussion about the prosecutions taking place at a department level.”
10:58 AM BST
McFadden not briefed on ‘any’ sub-postmaster issues
Pat McFadden has claimed he was not briefed about “any issues sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses” were having with Horizon when he joined the department in 2007.
In his witness statement, he said: “As to my knowledge of Horizon when I was appointed to the Department, I knew by virtue of the handover note that Government had made an investment of ￡500 million in 1999 into the Horizon project to bring modem computer systems into every post office in the country for the first time, enabling Post Office Ltd to launch a range of new products and to open its counters to potentially over 20 million bank customers.”
His statement continued: “The note did not mention anything in relation to any issues sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses [SPMs] were having with the Horizon IT system, and I did not receive any oral briefing upon appointment to the Department in relation to any such issues.
“Horizon was mentioned in briefings and statements when I was first appointed only as an investment in the future of the Post Office.
“I did not at the time of appointment know of complaints made by SPMs about the system.”
He says his knowledge of Horizon matters did not “materially change or develop” until early 2009
10:25 AM BST
Post Office closures ‘dominant’ issue over Horizon
Pat McFadden, who became minister of state for the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform in July 2007, is being asked about what Post Office issues he spoke to the Secretary of State, then John Hutton, about.
He told the inquiry the “most dominant Post Office issue” in the early part of his tenure.
“It was very politically contentious. We were closing 2,500 post offices out of a total network of roughly 14,000,” he said.
Mr McFadden added: “It was quite hot, politically, that programme. And in terms of the postal affairs part of my brief, it was very much the dominant issue for about the first 15 months that I was there.”
Counsel Sam Stevens then asked: “Did you have a conversation with the Secretary of State at any point regarding the allegations, made by sub-postmasters, as to the integrity of the Horizon IT system?”
To which Mr McFadden replied “I don’t believe so”.
10:03 AM BST
Pat McFadden sworn in at inquiry with 26-page witness statement
Pat McFadden has been sworn in at the Post Office inquiry and will shortly be questioned by counsel Sam Stevens this morning.
Mr McFadden submitted a 26-page witness statement and has made one small correction.
09:53 AM BST
Pat McFadden arrives at Aldwych House
Pat McFadden, the Labour MP for Wolverhampton South East since 2005, has arrived at the Post Office Inquiry ahead of giving evidence this morning.
Mr McFadden’s evidence is expected to begin at 10am.
09:47 AM BST
Who is giving evidence today?
The inquiry will hear from Sir Ed Davey and Pat McFadden, Sir Keir Starmer’s election chief and the newly appointed Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, on Thursday.
The two politicians are being questioned because of their previous roles as postal affairs ministers.
Mr McFadden served in the role from 2007 to 2010, before the Liberal Democrat leader, who took up the position during the coalition government until February 2012.
09:43 AM BST
Good morning
Welcome to The Telegraph’s live coverage of Thursday’s Post Office Inquiry hearing.
Fiona Parker, one of The Telegraph’s senior news reporters, will be at Aldwych House to provide the latest updates from the inquiry.
You can read more information on the Horizon IT scandal here.
